273: How Can You Transform Your Childcare Center with Creative Staffing Solutions? With Cindy Lehnhoff

In this episode of Child Care Conversations, you’ll meet Cindy Lehnhoff, a true gem with 40+ years in childcare! Cindy shares her inspiring journey from part-time preschool teacher to VP of Operations, and dishes out practical tips on flexible staffing, creative scheduling, and why part-time roles can be a game-changer. 

The chat also covers staff well-being, vacation policies, and the value of professional development (and conferences with duck parades ). If you’re looking for real-world wisdom and a little encouragement, this is the episode for you!

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Transcript

Marie 00:00:03  Welcome to Child Care Conversations, the podcast where early childhood leaders like you get real world strategies, honest talk and a whole lot of support. Whether you're running one center or many. We're here to help you lead with confidence and clarity. This episode is brought to you by our summer partner Child Care Business Growth, your go to solution for filling spots, increasing revenue, and scaling your child care business without the burnout. We're proud to partner with a team that's as committed to your success as we are. Learn more at Childcare Business growth.com. Now let's get into today's conversation. One we think you're really going to love.

Kate 00:00:49  We are so excited today. We have got a guest coming in from Florida with the National Child Care Association. Right. That's whose hat you actually wear, right, Cindy? It is like sometimes you have people I don't know that maybe wear more than one hat. And although we have met Cindy at different times, virtually or adjacent. we got a chance to really get to know Cindy and spend time with Cindy in May in Rhode Island, of all places, and we are so excited to have her join us.

Kate 00:01:25  And we are going to take Cindy down her non-traditional, conversation. So, Cindy, you can find other webinars with Cindy all over the place and other podcasts where Cindy's talks about advocacy. So if this is if that's a topic, let us know. We'll be happy to a have Cindy back because we'd love to do that. But also we'd be happy to share other episodes of other collaborators, who've had some beyond where she has talked about advocacy. But today we're going to talk about, well, being willing to grow, I think is going to be my way toward that. So with that, Cindy, introduce yourself just a little bit. Give us what we're going to get into all of your story, but talk about a little bit of your story.

Cindy 00:02:09  All right. Well, I'm Cindy Lindholm and I am so glad that Kerry and Kate invited me. they're a lot of fun. I learned that in Rhode Island, and they're really smart about child care in the industry, so that combination works well for me.

Cindy 00:02:27  I have worked in the industry for over 40 years. the majority of my career was spent with the second largest childcare provider. and I was a multi-site manager. I did start out as a, as a preschool teacher three hours a day. And that's pretty that's a pretty good story of, you know, Kate and Kerry want to go there. but, having started out as a three hour a day preschool teacher in 1980 1880 with a small family owned company. I had the opportunity to grow with them over a 36 year period, and I retired from that career as a vice president of operations in the southeast, which took me to Florida, where I'm at today.

Kate 00:03:16  And so. Wait, wait wait wait. You were with the same company the whole time.

Cindy 00:03:20  For 36 years.

Kate 00:03:22  Wow. Okay. So like like that's unheard of anymore.

Cindy 00:03:26  It's like it.

Kate 00:03:26  Is. I'm like, I knew that you'd been in for a long time, but I don't think I put the two pieces together that it was the same company the whole time.

Kate 00:03:34  Oh, now I'm even more excited about this topic. Okay, Kerry, I saw you. I know you have a question.

Carrie 00:03:39  So when you were doing three hours a day, was that that you were a relief teacher or was it more of a mother's Day Out program?

Cindy 00:03:48  It was actually I was a three hour a day preschool teacher from nine to noon, for a la petite academy in South Oklahoma City that is still there today. It is getting ready to celebrate its 50th year of serving that community, and I did not want to work full time. I was a stay at home mom, and I actually went to, check out enrolling my then three year old in a in a preschool program. And they were opening a brand new center, in Oklahoma City. And I saw the sign I was new there. My husband had gotten transferred with his job, and I wanted her to go to preschool while her brother was in first grade. But not all day. And, but while I was there, I guess I asked a lot of good questions.

Cindy 00:04:49  and at some point, the director, who was just really very welcoming and excited about her program, which was Montessori based. By the way, back in that day and time. Not Montessori school, but Montessori based. So we were, you know. Already allowing children to explore and do what we called workshops, you know, on their own. But she asked me if I had ever worked with children. And I said, well, I, I teach, I teach Sunday school 3 to 5 year olds. Well, in 1980, that was like a degree. It was like a CDA. It was like because none of those things existed. And she got real excited and said, well, would you be interested in working? And I said, well, maybe a little. And she said, well, your daughter could come to preschool for free but not be in your class. And I was like, well, that might not be so bad that I can make sure these people are somebody I want to leave my child with.

Cindy 00:05:53  And so I applied, and, I got interviewed. I didn't get hired for the new school, but I got hired for the existing one, and it was back in the day. What I learned later was the oil industry was booming in Oklahoma. And they were having trouble getting, you know, staff. Oh deja vu. and maybe not quite as as serious as it is as it is now. But the remarkable thing I think was, is that and I tell I used to tell this recruitment story because as time went on and we hit those pockets of time, and especially in my last few years where, you know, getting staff was difficult, I said, I am a recruitment story. I was recruited when I was taking a tour because something I said or did caught the attention of the director, I don't.

Kate 00:06:50  Well, I want to point out the one thing that you said that caught my eye. Speaking of recruitment stories, because I think it's often missed, Kerry and I have sat in with a lot of staff this time of year where people are training new staff and bringing on new staff is the number of directors and owners that get really myopic on how they hire staff.

Kate 00:07:12  That staff have to be full time, that staff have to have a degree and all of these kinds of things. And I love your recruitment story. I love the fact that you're like, no, I only want to come in three hours. And they were okay with that. I love that you didn't have a degree when you started, and that you didn't have all these things that would, in a lot of professions, mean that you are you cost more money. Right, right. And so when owners and directors are thinking about those job postings and, well, really it's job descriptions, right? Like people keep forgetting the difference between a want ad and a job description, but that's a whole other episode.

Cindy 00:07:50  I know.

Kate 00:07:51  And but you came in with an interest. You came in with a passion and. Well, obviously, that director knew what they were doing because you stuck around for another 36 years or another 35 years, I guess. Right. And, you know, continued to move up the ladder.

Kate 00:08:08  So I think that hopefully whoever's listening, if you get nothing else out of this episode, don't rule out parents and don't rule out part time staff. I mean, I, I would much rather have 40 part time staff than 20 full time staff because, you know, if somebody leaves, I can hire one out of 39. It's different to hire that one out of 20. just because, you know, it's a full day and you can make half day shifts work because you can you can find somebody who for a week, I'm sure that there were times if somebody said, hey, Cindy, this week so-and-so is going on vacation, can I get you to stay till two?

Cindy 00:08:51  absolutely.

Kate 00:08:52  For a week.

Cindy 00:08:54  Absolutely.

Carrie 00:08:55  I mean, that's kind of similar to my first grown up job in the industry. I was at a center that had a morning shift and an afternoon shift. It was all a credit. You know, it was an accredited program. It had amazing curriculum, but there was a shift of people who came in.

Carrie 00:09:13  Whether you were leader, assistant, you either came in at 7 or 730 and you left at 12 or 1230. And then the other half came in at 12 or 1230 and left at 530 or 6. And so your kid, you know, in each classroom, the children would have more than two people that they had to get to know. But it made it such that the kids had multiple positive caregivers. They had two primary ones, a morning one and an afternoon one. So in that way, it was the same as a lot of other programs, but there might be as many as ten different staff over the course of a week because it was associated with the university. Most of the people attending were the children of university people. It wasn't associated with the university. That's just who was there.

Cindy 00:10:03  Right? I understand. I've worked in college towns and it's a little different staffing model.

Carrie 00:10:09  And but what they did great, I thought, was when a staff person left, you were only losing at most 25 hours a week of that person.

Carrie 00:10:22  So the children still had their other, you know, 4 or 5 phases, people that they knew. And it wasn't such a loss where if you have two people working 40 hours a week and one person working, you know, six to cover lunch breaks. Then when one of those 40 hour a week people leave, that is a huge loss for the kids and I'm sure that there's research papers, etc.. But what I remember from all the research papers I've read over the past five years is that having consistent caregivers is what's important. Not that everybody who takes care of the kids, but having ones that the children are attached to. Am I having the part time staff? You allow the child to form multiple attachments.

Cindy 00:11:07  Exactly. And different personalities. and, you know, we're all human, and some children connect better with some personalities than others, and vice versa. again, if you make it consistent, it works. And the problem with the 40 hour week employee, when every position is 40 hours and over, which is exactly what you pointed out, is that when one drops out, there's nobody to cover it without overtime.

Cindy 00:11:39  Overtime is exhausting. Yeah, for, teachers in early childhood. And it also is very expensive. So it becomes an operational issue because you have tired teachers and tired. Teachers make mistakes and we don't want that for the teacher. We don't want that for the child. And then also we are an industry that we can't afford over time. So you can avoid it with a scheduling model that works, which over over time I actually developed one that our company rolled out. It was called the Unemotional Schedule. And, it really did work and we didn't have to worry about, you know, all those lunch breaks either. All those our lunch breaks.

Kate 00:12:27  I mean, lunch breaks and vacations were. yeah, those were things I hated to schedule around. And so when I came to work for Kerry, and we were I was a parent. My child was in her program before, I went to work for Kerry. And one of the things I loved from day one is that Kerry's carries solution. And, you know, even after 25 years of sharing the story, we still get people who've never heard of or like Marvel at the concept.

Kate 00:12:57  But, you know, Kerry just closed the school two weeks a year. So that's when every parent and every staff person had their two weeks of vacation. And so, you know, where else do you get to start in this industry and immediately have two weeks, a year of vacation. And it was during the week of 4th of July and the week between Christmas and New Year, where a lot of families were already taking off. Some of that time might have already had some holiday pay and so rarely. And because it's, you know, this coming in from the get go, there was never a, there was never a confusion.

Carrie 00:13:33  There wasn't a whole lot of confusion. And everybody got two weeks of vacation. From the minute that they in, they started working. It depended whether it was paid or unpaid, whether they were on probation or not. But you still got two weeks of vacation. So I'd have.

Cindy 00:13:52  When everybody wants vacation anyway. Yeah, because I found that to be true.

Cindy 00:13:57  And those are the two lowest attended weeks in all of childcare. I mean, for 36 years, I saw it consistently. And ultimately, everybody wanted off, and you were trying to figure out who you were going to say no to. What a.

Kate 00:14:14  Great idea. Not only that, my favorite of the parents that want to not have to pay the week, their child's there, you know, and those kinds of things. And so this was just a way that no, you pay and the staff get paid. Like, you know what? You know, do you pay your electric bill? and then, you know, we've got strategies that we used from the get go related to that. On it being annual tuition versus monthly or weekly tuition. It was always renewal.

Cindy 00:14:40  Just like college. That's what we used to say. You know, you pay tuition based on a semester, you know, and not a week.

Carrie 00:14:51  Yeah. Yep. I mean, part of it came from I'm relatively conflict avoidant, and part of it came from I knew that I wanted everybody to have two weeks of vacation, and that that is hard to do in child care.

Carrie 00:15:02  And so I was like, well, we'll just do this from the beginning. And they're six months apart and my staff won't get overstressed because once every six weeks, months, sorry, not six weeks. Once every six months the building is closed. You know, and it it it was the cheapest and best recruiting tool that I had in my toolbox back in the early 90s, mid 90s, mid 90s was to say the day you start, you've got two weeks of of vacation scheduled. And people were like, what? Really? And I was like, yeah, we've already got your two weeks of vacation schedule. Once you've been with us for six months. You get this much more and you know all of that. And I had people who were getting five and six weeks of paid vacation with me by the time I sold my last school, and I didn't have much staff turnover. I hear so much about staff turnover and I'm like, okay, what are you doing to make them feel appreciated? I buy them pizza every Friday.

Carrie 00:16:08  That's not saying that they're respected. It's not saying that you're honoring them as a professional. It's saying you're aware that they have a digestive tract. Like that's all. Buying them pizza every Friday does show them the respect of you deserve PTO. You deserve time away from this job to recharge your batteries. Also, I expect you to get your annual training. That's not my job. That's your job. If you want to keep this job, you'll get your annual training.

Cindy 00:16:38  Amen to that.

Kate 00:16:41  I'm like, oh, I'm feeling a soapbox coming.

Cindy 00:16:43  That was something I had to really work with directors on. you know, when I was the multi-site leader was to, you know, when they would say, well, they, you know, they aren't getting their training. What do I do? Well, you might want to tell them that when their when their year is up and they haven't met the state requirement or in and, and later in my career, the accredited requirement for training their job will be no more.

Cindy 00:17:16  And you have to tell them that and you have to put it in writing and have you given them. You know, I used to say just provide them with training information, where to go, you know, sign up as a group for a conference. There's nothing like, you know, we used to have great conferences in Oklahoma and, and we could usually even get, you know, some help from the, agencies to pay for a staff to attend. And so you know if they if they're not going to get it they can't continue to work. Well I'll be sure to teach it. We'll start looking now if you think that's.

Kate 00:17:52  Going to happen. I love that. I think that's great words of advice. But I think it's even better advice because I think they have a conference, don't they, Cindy?

Cindy 00:18:03  They do. In fact, we're preparing for it now. our conference is March 19th through the 21st in Memphis, Tennessee, at the historic Peabody Hotel, where they have the Little Duck parade, every day.

Cindy 00:18:21  So we're really excited about that. and I know that I'm going to see you two ladies there. we definitely look forward to having you back because you were presented as presenters at our last conference, so it's going to be fun. We had great fun at our last one in some of the evening events where, you know, people gathered with celebrating the 80s and dancing and karaoke and trivia. But more importantly, we networked. We learned together. We also develop friendships with people that help us understand that we're not alone, and that somebody may have a solution. Look at the solution that, you know, Carrie just mentioned that you brought up Kate about vacations. That one idea could really help somebody if they're ready to receive something new. And I think that's the value of conferences. And since our conferences are geared towards, independently owned child care centers and homes, mostly centers, but homes are invited as well. they don't have a lot of camaraderie unless they seek it at a conference. So I can't emphasize enough, whether it's our conference or another conference that's available to your listeners is go.

Cindy 00:19:49  You will not regret it. And one of the things that came out of our last conference, because we chose to have snacks all day, snacks and drinks. Nobody had to buy snacks or drinks. And we fed, lunch, breakfast and lunch every day. And heavy our nerves at night was that people were they were so excited. They said they felt like they were treated like they were important. And it's like, because you are. And we will continue that tradition.

Kate 00:20:20  Well, I've got a great a great tidbit for that too, for everybody who's listening, who has to file taxes. Your meals are not 100% deductible. So find conferences where the meals are included because your conference fee is 100% deductible. So there's my tax tip for the day. Okay.

Cindy 00:20:43  That's a great listen. Every everybody has to know everything because it's the only way to, you know, continue in an industry that is sometimes struggles with sustainability. And again reach out and touch people.

Kate 00:20:59  Absolutely. So if you're coming to the conference you have time right now a to sign up or to watch for sign up and be get some business cards and bring them with you.

Kate 00:21:09  I know that a lot of people love the the digital blank and whatever, but you know what? You've still got people out there who are going to be visual and tactile learners, and your visual learners want to see that physical card doesn't have to have your picture on it, but if it does, it's even better. Give them something in that card that reminds them of you and give it to them so they can hold it so your kinesthetic learners will be able to feel it. We won't talk about the stacks I got sitting on my desk. But considering how many conferences Carrie and I go to in a year, it's not nearly as many, and I, I totally respect. I do have a digital business card. I will blink and do those things with folks, but the ones I remember to actually follow up and keep in contact with are the ones who gave me the physical card, because it gets shuffled and I go, oh wait, I actually called that person, okay, oh, I haven't called that person.

Kate 00:22:05  And

Cindy 00:22:06  I do the same thing I am. I am the visual kinesthetic old fashioned card. Yep. Because I will more than likely revisit your card than I will another, something on a, on a digital piece because I.

Kate 00:22:25  Remember which app it was. I mean, that's part of it now too, is like, I think there's at least 4 or 5 of those little digital cards. And so I have to remember where it is. And if I didn't stop and put notes right then and there in my phone, I may totally forget who you are, where you're located, what we talked about, or anything where I can with a business card. And a lot of times Carrie and I will maybe at lunch or in the afternoon, or maybe at the evening, we'll stop and kind of try to remember what we could remember about people. It will be like, hey, we talked to this person. I think it was this, and this is what we talked about. And so we'll both take notes on the back of our cards so that we can remember who people are afterwards.

Cindy 00:23:09  That's great. You have each other for that.

Carrie 00:23:12  Yeah. I mean I, I think another thing when it comes to conferences is if you can go with a buddy like.

Cindy 00:23:20  Oh, absolutely.

Carrie 00:23:22  And what I think is fabulous is if your school is running well enough that both, like the owner and the director can leave and the assistant director is running the program, or it's the owner and the assistant director, maybe they trade off one time. It's the owner and the director, and one time it's the owner and the assistant director. Because somebody has to run the school. Unless you can close the school down for the conference, which I think most of us can't do. But if you if you can take two members of the leadership team, you're much more likely to implement any of the cool new ideas you got. If there's two members of the team that go, if you can't because you're a sole proprietor and you just have an assistant director who is also your toddler teacher, and so you don't have somebody else you can bring with find another director or owner that might be interested in going and have them go with you.

Carrie 00:24:17  So at least you have somebody to talk to after dinner and go, oh, did you talk to this person? I did, this is, you know, and so you can share the information because you're much more likely to retain it if you talk it through.

Cindy 00:24:30  And sometimes you hear different things.

Carrie 00:24:33  Yes.

Kate 00:24:34  That absolutely. But you can listen to our episodes. We have lots of directors from all over the country who've been on our episodes. You can also go over to Child Care director's chair with Erica. You listen to her episodes. You might find somebody on one of those that resonates. Go into the episode show notes and see if you can't figure out how to contact them. I'm creepy. I do stalk people on social media so I know I'm not the only person. Go find these people. They want to connect. That's why they're on these podcasts, webinars and stuff like that. It's not so that they're not trying to hide in a box and go force yourself to meet them. And chances are, if carrier is there or I'm there or Eric is there or Cindy's there, we would be happy to say hey, hello and be help you find your conference buddy for that conference, because then you have somebody to you have a reason to go for somebody who's keeping you accountable to actually show up to the workshops and not just take it like I'm okay with a working vacation, don't get me wrong.

Kate 00:25:38  But if you've come to the conference, I mean, we want you to enjoy the poolside, but we also want you to come to the workshops, right?

Cindy 00:25:47  Well, it's going to be a little chilly in March, so we probably won't have poolside, but you never know what could distract someone. But one of the things that we did talk about.

Kate 00:25:57  There's a bar in the hotel. Let's be honest. Yes.

Cindy 00:26:00  One of the things we've talked about with our conference committee is making sure that we build in some opportunity for those coming from Texas to meet those coming from, you know, Virginia to meet. So if there are any lone wolfs or if even if there's groups of people, again, there's value in, you know, talking to other people, as you both know, that have worked in this industry and, you know, get them out of their silos because that that's what can happen to those that are independently owned. They don't. Absolutely. Out of their silos. And, you know.

Cindy 00:26:43  You just, mentioned how having a member of management, besides the owner and maybe even the director and the assistant. One of the things that I found years ago, and again, we do have owners that have multi sites. and I found that I would have a director meeting, and the director would, they were supposed to transfer the information, you know, to the assistant. It just didn't happen. So I learned early, you know, on that. I just did the same meeting for assistant directors because one, they were my future. And, directors, in case someone, you know, left to marry an Air Force captain and move out of state. You know, things happen.

Kate 00:27:33  I'm sure that never happened to you, Cindy.

Cindy 00:27:35  Yes it did. And one year it happened to me like three times in one year that people actually legitimately, you know, moved out of state. And I didn't have a good bench. And I have worked I have went into areas I even did some consulting and found that the bench weakness is, is going to kill our industry.

Kate 00:28:00  Well, I personally love that and that again, you know, bench bench building is definitely something that's a passion for Carrie and I. And so that could easily be its own topic. But I want to talk. I realize we've not actually gone down what we said we were going to talk about. So somehow in your career path, you went from a three hour a day teacher to a vice president of operations over, you know, a large regional area. I'm sure there are some steps in those 36 years that we have not talked about. So how did you. Like did you seek these out? Like again, we know that at the time a lot of the credentials that exist now didn't exist then. So did you go looking for these or did people just go oh Cindy's got her stuff together. I want Cindy to do it. Or how did you, how did you move up and how quickly did some of that happen.

Cindy 00:28:55  Well, after I had been a director of a preschool teacher for about six months, my director kept coming to me and saying, are you ready to be full time yet? And I kept saying, no, not yet.

Cindy 00:29:11  I'm not sure I'll ever be ready to be full time, but I'll let you know. Well, ironically, my husband got laid off from his job and after I'd been there a year, working three hours a day. However, I did fill in during the summer for field trips. You know, it's like you said. They would ask me to work periodically, and I did over my three hours and I thought, well, I better, you know, pick up some hours. And so I told my director I was ready. And of course, you know, she jumped right on that. And I had worked there a couple of years, and the company started building more sites in that city. And my director was going to become a district manager because the district manager we had at that time didn't live in Oklahoma City, but they were planning more growth. And she came to me and she said, I'm going to recommend you to be a director. I looked around and I was like, are you? Is there somebody else in the room?

Cindy 00:30:17  and she said, you.

Cindy 00:30:19  Have caught on to everything, you know, that we do here and then some. And, and she had taught me how to do the books and not only my teaching job, but and we had at that time, she also was a woman ahead of her time because she enrolled us in some coursework that was through Oklahoma State University that later became a CDA credential. But it was just a ladder of learning, and they had some grant money, and all we had to do was just sign up to go and pay, like, you know, $4 for a book. So that whole time, you know, we were being trained, and then she trained me, like I said, on how to do the, the bookkeeping, which, you know, was manual. We didn't have computers, you know, how to collect money from parents that didn't want to pay without, you know, being mean and and how to, you know, be in compliance with licensing. She just taught me all the things.

Cindy 00:31:23  And I think she was teaching a lot of us. But evidently I demonstrated something that others because there was only one other person on her staff that she recommended, to become a director.

Kate 00:31:36  Okay, so let me let me get this right. When there was literally paper, paper, pencil and, you know, spreadsheet paper. Like it wasn't digital, right? She took the time to teach you how to run that part of the business.

Cindy 00:31:52  Yes. Because you know why? Well, she was a smart lady, for one thing. She liked to take vacations. She didn't want to be there full time. I mean, she was there full time, but usually in the summer. Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me get a drink.

Kate 00:32:09  Okay. I just while you're drinking, I'm just trying to verify. So she actually took vacations and left. And so to do that, she recognized that she needed to train people to fill in for her.

Cindy 00:32:22  I know what a concept. Right?

Kate 00:32:24  I love this concept.

Kate 00:32:26  Carrie, this is. You know.

Carrie 00:32:27  I don't know. I mean.

Kate 00:32:29  I.

Carrie 00:32:29  Think a lot of directors would go, no, no, no. If I train somebody else to do this job, then they're going to take my job. And then I, you know, I'll be out of work.

Cindy 00:32:39  You know, I just had one of my old directors and she wasn't old in years, but we go way back. And of course, like most of us, she has evolved into a great leader. And she owns her own center now. But I was her district manager, and she was a director that I inherited in a regrouping of states, because I was in 12 different states over my career, and she needed a a good assistant and to really take her program to where she wanted it to be. And she just didn't want to go there. And it wasn't long ago we were having a conversation because we've been friends now for over 30 years. And again, She owns her own center.

Cindy 00:33:29  She owns a consulting. And she said, believe it or not. Remember when you were pushing me to get a better assistant in somebody that you know could actually do my job? She said, I thought it was because someday you'd want to replace me. I'm like, no. And then I had one director who kept telling me she was not going to have. She didn't need an assistant. And I finally said, well, is your a regional director? Guess what I need for you to have as an assistant? Because what if you get sick and have to go on sick leave? Or, you know, you may not think you need a vacation, but guess what? You're going to probably need a vacation at some point. Well, lo and behold, that director who finally gave in and said, okay, you win. she, went on to have twins while she was a director. And it was like, see.

Carrie 00:34:21  She wants some time off for that.

Cindy 00:34:23  Yes, I did, and I said, this is exactly.

Cindy 00:34:26  What I'm talking about.

Cindy 00:34:28  I.

Cindy 00:34:28  Because I learned that lesson I learned that I couldn't multi-site manage and be their substitute. Now I you know, it was the lesson learned, you know, from being their substitute. And it was also something I had to teach when I became the VP. Well, the divisional director and then the, the VP was regional directors, district managers. You are not subs for your programs. Your job is to help them get, you know, subs or a schedule that allows for subbing within your schedule, which is, you know, what we were kind of talking about earlier? Kerry.

Cindy 00:35:10  Yeah.

Cindy 00:35:11  when everybody isn't 40 hours. so, you know, that is definitely, you know, huge. And I think it's still a problem in our industry is that people want to micromanage.

Carrie 00:35:23  I think it might be more of an issue now. I really, I really hear a lot more programs now saying, oh, I only hire full time staff. And, I when I again, I had four schools and yes, I like to have a full time person in every classroom, but I wanted them to have two part time assistants.

Carrie 00:35:45  I didn't want two.

Cindy 00:35:47  People.

Carrie 00:35:47  Because it locked me in to those people.

Cindy 00:35:52  Yes.

Carrie 00:35:53  I didn't have any flexibility. I didn't have an ability for somebody to work half, you know, to to work to cover somebody else's shift when somebody was out sick or, you know, decided to go have twins, like I, I don't understand the move. I well, I guess from some perspective I do, because I think part of it is that move to, professionalize the industry and that.

Kate 00:36:20  I think the move is they just want it simple math. And I mean, there's there's so much software out there that makes payroll easy. That makes scheduling easier. I won't say it's easy, but I mean one thing and I'm using Cindy as an example. Again, it is so much easier to recognize and promote those part time staff. But once somebody you know, if you bring somebody in full time, there's only so many places you can take them in most organizations where if they're part time and they come in as a teacher, that's a part time teacher or a part time assistant director.

Kate 00:36:56  You're setting up from the beginning that not every role has to be full time, and a lot of independently owned programs probably could use a part time curriculum coordinator or a part time insert, you know, training coordinator or whatever. So you can have these roles where people can still be promoted and challenged and, encouraged to to learn and to grow without it that necessarily meaning that they have to be full time because they might have families. one of Carrie's favorite stories that we love to tell is the person who bought Carrie's last story was actually a substitute who had been a grandma who only wanted to come in a few hours a week, and she ended up being a full time infant teacher and later bought the last program. So, you know, you just never know when you're going to find people. And if you start going, I'm only going to hire people with a degree full time. You're really narrowing.

Cindy 00:37:56  You're going to be understaffed.

Cindy 00:37:58  You're going to be understaffed.

Kate 00:37:59  And they're.

Cindy 00:38:00  More stressed.

Kate 00:38:01  And overwhelmed.

Cindy 00:38:02  And it's like piecing a puzzle together. And, a consulting job that I had after I retired, and trying to help, you know, someone, with their business of business, is was teaching that concept of piecing together, you know, staff again to have that consistency and this one of the locations that, this individual had was in a college town. And so you have those college students who come in and, you know, they have these classes that are all over the board, but I can work every Monday, Tuesday and Friday in the morning. Okay. And then I can work every, you know, Wednesday and Thursday in the afternoon. Well, trust me, I'm going to find somebody from that same college. And you might even help me as the person I just hired, you know, to piece that together. And once I was able to demonstrate because she didn't want to hire from the college at all because they couldn't work full time and they weren't, you know, they they had too many things they had to keep up with and that and I said, we're going to hire them and they're not going to work 40 hours and they're going to offset each other and they're going to, you know, be the the Ta to in the room.

Cindy 00:39:23  The teacher. Assistant?

Cindy 00:39:24  Yep.

Cindy 00:39:25  Again I just have a really mental block, you know, into the 40 hour. Everybody works 40 hours. One I can't manage. I can't manage a lunch schedule. When everybody's working 40 hours, it is just beyond my brain.

Cindy 00:39:41  Absolutely.

Kate 00:39:42  Well, Cindy, I am so glad that you took the time to join us today, and we'll definitely have you on for more conversations. Carrie, I know that you have something you want to say.

Carrie 00:39:51  Well, I want to say that you need to find the professional organization that works for you, that has your people in it. We were you know, we were talking about this earlier. Find your people and go to their conferences and subscribe to this podcast.

Cindy 00:40:08  There we go. I highly.

Cindy 00:40:10  Recommend both. So it's a pleasure, as always, talking with passionate, knowledgeable, experienced individuals that did what I did and just, you know, learned what to do to keep people moving in the right direction so that they had great programs operationally and financially.

Cindy 00:40:34  Because that's what I want to remind people of. You got to be able to do both. And if you get a good operation going, for instance, scheduling, you know, correctly, it's going to pay off financially because you're going to have enrollments because of what you're doing and how you're doing it. Absolutely. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Carrie 00:40:52  And be creative in how you're hiring and staffing. Cindy was a fluke of a hire. Who would have thought somebody asking intelligent questions on a tour would become someone who worked for that business for 36 years? I bet none of us think that when we're doing a tour, sometimes we're just like, hurry up, I gotta get through this because I gotta redo the lunch schedule because I had two people call out. Be present. Do a good interview. You might have the next Cindy Lynn Hof in your building. Asking about the toilet training practices of your preschool classroom.

Kate 00:41:32  I love that. Well, thank you everybody so much. You're fun.

Kate 00:41:36  See you next week.

Cindy 00:41:37  All right. Bye bye.

Marie 00:41:39  Thanks for tuning in. We love bringing you real talk and fresh insight from the world of early childhood education. Be sure to follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all of the latest episodes. And if you're planning a conference, training, or special event. Kate and Carrie would love to speak to your audience. You can learn more about their keynote sessions and workshops at Kate and Carrico. If you learned something today, share the show and leave us a review below. We'll see you next time on Child Care Conversations.