349: Can Music Really Transform Early Childhood Learning and Behavior? With Debbie Clement

Child Care Conversations: Music, Joy & Early Childhood Magic

Get ready to smile! In this episode, Carrie and Kate sit down with the absolutely delightful Debbie Clement — musicologist, author, illustrator, and self-described "best kept secret" in early childhood education. With nearly 30 years of experience, Debbie shares why music isn't just fun; it's brain science! From behavior support to literacy and math connections, music is a powerful tool every director should know about. Fair warning: this conversation goes wonderfully off-script, and honestly? That's what makes it so good.

Learn more about our guest here! 

Website: RainbowsWithinReach.com 

Email: debbie@rainbowswithinreach 

Phone: (614)309-5270

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Child Care Conversations, the podcast where early childhood leaders like you get real-world strategies, honest talk, and a whole lot of support. Whether you're running one center or many, we're here to help you lead with confidence and clarity. This episode is brought to you by Center IQ. If you've ever added a child to a classroom, adjusted staffing, or made a quick schedule change, and then spent the next two weeks fixing the ripple effects, you're not alone. Most leaders make decisions and then see what happens. CenterIQ's decision intelligence lets you see what happens before you decide. Start your free trial today at centeriQ.io. Now, let's get into today's conversation. One we think you're really going to love.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

So have you ever wished your life was a little bit more like a musical, with people randomly breaking into song? Well, we've got a guest today who can help with that. So Debbie Clement. We met her in Florida at Flecy, Florida A E-Y-C, for those not in the know. Um, and she is just a gem of a musicologist, um, somebody who brings music into your life. And she's written a few books, and we think she's got some stuff to share with you guys about how to bring more joy into your program with music and books. So welcome, Debbie.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh, thank you, Carrie. Somebody on Facebook just said to me, I think you have the joy gene. And I mean, like, and then you said that. This was not scripted, people. Uh, and I think I do. I I grew up singing joy, joy, joy, joy down in your heart. Let me just give you a a zippity-doo-dah into who I am. This is I I was thinking about this morning. I'm six weeks short of having been Debbie Clement on the road for 30 years in early childhood. I know, 30 years. This means I'm old.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

So are we, so are we. We are not spring chickens over here.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And maturity is a good thing, right? I mean, I I have um literally been able to travel from coast to coast and back and forth and up and down, and yet probably uh 80% of your audience has never even heard of me. I think, you know, I'm that poster for uh the best kept secret kind of person. People who know me, love me, and invite me back, and then there's lots of people that have never heard of me. But I have written and recorded over a hundred original songs for young children. And then my art degree. So this is how I'm different than some of the other wonderful music people in early childhood. I have a degree in art, and one of my songs that was first released on a cassette tape, okay, again, how old is this woman? Okay, it was a cassette tape first, and then I just kept getting the most amazing feedback. Oh, Debbie, I wish I had the I wish you you're teaching it in sign language, and I'm never gonna remember. Uh, I wish I had the music notes. We're gonna perform this at our end of the year event. Uh, where's the music? And on and on and on, and I said, oh, this is starting to sound like a book. I have an art degree. How could I turn this into a book? And so you're wonderful. You're what here, I'll back up. You're wonderful. I know not everybody's watching. Um, I'm a colorful sort of person, so it might be worth your while to go find us on YouTube and see this whole happiness. I love that plug. Thank you, Debbie. We didn't even ask her to do that, but um, yeah. But they did tell me that only uh about the majority are listening and not watching. And I'm one of the ones maybe you want to watch. But so, anyhow, it's a whole lot of music, a whole lot of ears, a whole lot of getting back and forth. Um, I have for the visual learners in our audience, I keep all my books. I am the author-illustrator for four picture books that are the lyrics of the song, become the text of the book. I have to stop and think, make sure I get it the right way. So here's your wonderful that was on that first ever cassette tape. And I made the illustrations from fabric as small quilts. So when I get invited out as the author, there are often quilts of all sorts of affirmation. I think you're wonderful, I think you're marvelous. It only has really six words. So again, I know wonderful, marvelous, beautiful, magical. Oh, then you have to say filled with, but filled with curiosity and dreams. And so the sign language chart is here in the back, and the music notes, all those things people asked for. And then once they figured out how to do books, I had a song I had already written called Tall Giraffe. And my niece went to Africa and she took pictures of giraffes for me. And so this one is actual African giraffes, but they're they're pictured in uh petites from Africa. So again, there it's a it's very, very genuine giraffe, and and then the African art behind the photographs.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Then very Okay, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. I told you, you keep doing this, I'm gonna interrupt you. All right, so Debbie, a director listening, and this all sounds wonderful, and love that you're colorful. I've zipped over to YouTube to watch you. I'm gonna just be blunt.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Why do I care? Why do we care? Well, Howard Gardner would be the one to tell us that music for some children is their intelligence. I think we all know if we work with children for more than half an hour. Uh, some children, you know, come into the program and they're bouncing across the parking lot with the beat. What we know from brain research is children who have the beat are our first and easiest avenue into literacy and then also into math. The same areas of the brain that coordinate for music, coordinate for math and literacy. So that would be one easy, easy answer. Why do we care? Because the children care, right? They they came into this world hearing their mother's heartbeat. And that beat, we can use that to our advantage in all sorts of ways to direct behavior, for one. And that might be something of interest uh to a program director.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

No, what do you mean about behavior issues? I mean, there's nobody has nobody listening that's got any of that going on.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

I mean, come on, Carrie, you know that. I mean, I am not somebody who can who has a very good singing voice, but I sang all through my classroom career. I, you know, I sang the cleanup song, I sang made-up songs about, you know, we've got to get to the playground. Playground.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

The playground. And you know what? Oh, Carrie, this is just so organically awesome. So I these almost 30 years, let's just say I make it to June 1st, okay? Um, these 30 years of being the music person around the country, but before that, I was in a private preschool for young children with special needs. And so if you think of three and four and five-year-olds with autism and behavior issues, genuinely, when you have a four-year-old that's that's labeled with behavior issues, it's for real. Okay. And so Well, especially 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Because again, uh, you know, um Thank you. We're really quick to put those labels on. Okay, wait a minute. I'm gonna get off the soapbox before I even get on. I'm just gonna keep let you keep going. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Okay, so I got to see the power of music for nonverbal children. I got to see the power of music in a classroom setting. So let's see, we have two kids with behavior labels already. So this isn't just theory. You've actually done this. Oh, yeah, for 10 years. And then then these happy 30 years, right? But uh, so for 10 years, I got to work with um speech therapist, occupational therapist. My job was resource teacher, so I got to do everything else art and music and horseback riding and swimming and and core and I just saw uh no kidding, like a day ago, I haven't even put it up on LinkedIn. Oh, by the way, that's where I really try to contribute is on LinkedIn. So follow me over there. But I haven't put it up yet. But it said that one of the number one predictors of school success is swimming.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Yeah, is swimming. Yeah, so as somebody who swam at six months old, and then I was taught again at 18 months, but I was never had to be taught again. Um, I think that that is absolutely relevant, and I think that all of the smartest people are swimming.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Well, it's because of the bilateral connection. You're going across the corpus colostrum all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

And and strengthening all those brains. And some of us just go like this all the time, anyway. You know, it just it's it's the rationalization. I'm like going, well, of course I bounced back and forth, right? So um I'd been doing that for um a few decades.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And I remember hearing someone say that the that sign language is the only language that uses both hemispheres of the brain. Because you're using large muscle, small muscle, you know, it's coordinate, it's like bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. So again, when I speak to teachers and and classroom frontline folks, you know, I'm I'm encouraging them to laugh because that gets oxygen into the brain. I'm encouraging them to cross the midline, I'm encouraging them to stand on one foot. But oh, Carrie, something that you said earlier, I know, about not being maybe the most musically inclined person and yet singing through the whole day and making things up. That is my very favorite feedback from people uh it at a conference. They'll come up and they almost whisper, they kind of lean in and they say, Oh, Debbie, you know, I'm not a musical person, but your stuff is so easy. I think I could even do it. My very, very, very first song ever. Okay, so I was at that school, Childhood League Center in Columbus, Ohio, and it's still there after umpteen years. I wonder how many anyhow, a lot of years. Okay, hold on, hold on, Debbie. Are you from Columbus? Yeah. She's from Groveport. Where is that? Groveport. Oh, my daughter and my grandkids are in Potascala. I know.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yeah. So we lived in the world. I might go and how did it before? Sorry. So anybody listening, if you didn't already know, um, you know, apparently Debbie and I are long-lost sisters and we just didn't know it.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

I know. This is why you have to come on a podcast. But I was actually born in Indiana. So I have been Hoosiers, and we have our summer place in Wisconsin. So I'm a whole Midwest. But where in Wisconsin?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Door County. Okay, so we have a family. So Carrie and I are cousins. We have a family farm right on the Minnesota-Wisconsin border. Um, grew up in Madison.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

So And have you been to Door County with the goats on the roof?

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yes. Okay. Well, next time you're just uh three and a half miles from my house.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Carrie Carrie will be in Wisconsin for half of June and uh first week of July, um, doing the annual family reunion. So if you need to go to the Mississippi, just give her a call and she'll find you somewhere along the Mississippi border.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

And then we'll get you into some good ice cream.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

My oh, Nelson. Just come over to Nelson. I might even fly in for a trip to Nelson. I'm not making that drive. That's a that's a that's a 24-hour drive up by 35. But I will be.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Maybe four or five hours across the state, something like that. Ice cream.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Why would you not travel four hours for ice cream? And you know what? That is what our podcast producer is probably going to call this episode four hours for ice cream, because it'll just confuse everybody who starts listening.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Okay, go ahead, Debbie. I'm so sorry. So we're learning all the things. So when Carrie said, you know, music is not her first language, right? And and yet we know the the it's just so foundationally important. And what I was oh golly, just stick with one thought at a time. Okay, so my first my first song was Goldie Goldfish. I heard a professor of music say, na na na na na na na. And she called it the childhood chant, which I had never heard a name for. Childhood chant, she said, is the one first melody that we have as people on planet Earth. Okay. And then I've quit my day job, right? Where I have health insurance and um snow days and stuff like that. And I go out on the road with my guitar and my six chords that I can play, but that impresses four-year-olds, right? And I see this great goldfish puppet. This is a folk manis puppet, it's probably still available. This is from 30 years ago. And and look, it has moving parts and it shines, and it, you know, it has a mouth that opens. Okay. And I'm thinking, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. And people are saying to me, because I did that all the time, wash your hands now, wash your hands, now here we go, splash and you know, I mean, just all day long. And I would do that in staff development. And people would say, I would like to buy your songs. And I'm like, what songs do you want to buy? And then they're like, all that stuff you just sang to us. I'm I'm like, uh, that's just in the moment, you have my permission to make up songs all day long. Um, pick up the crayons, here we go. Okay, so I'm thinking, nana, nanna, nana, is the first ever melody that we have. I see a goldfish. And so I say, people want me to write songs. Okay. Goldie, goldie goldfish. Mm-hmm. Astor Ram was a swims all day around her dish. Goldie, goldie goldfish, follow me and make a wish. And then, no kidding, because I'm ancient, I got in the yellow pages and I look for recording studios. And the first one, back in 30 years ago, you do the math. Okay, um, was a marathon. It started with an A. And I called up and I said, I have a song and I want to record it. And this brilliant man answered the phone, and he didn't even work there. He just answered the phone. And he ended up producing my first four albums of songs, of all his first 80 songs. Um, and and what my music, it's fully instrumental, happy adult, you know. I mean, I think there's some things intended for kids that as an adult you can listen to at once, but then your fingernails are really scratching, you know. Yeah. And so, so I have real professors from Ohio State. Um, the the trombone professor plays on my uh albums, and and a professor from Delaware uh plays saxophone. And I mean, really talented people would come in and they'd say, Well, what do you want me to do? And I'm like, Do your trombone thing, you know, I don't know. And so musical improv.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yes, yes, and so Carrie's husband actually does grown-up musical improv, but probably definitely not child braided.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

And um I mean, it depends on the show, but yes. Um yeah, my husband duh took improv classes to do improv comedy, and then somebody said, Have you ever heard of musical improv? And my husband fell head over heels in love with the concept of randomly singing with um a theater teacher. And the two of them travel around the country a couple or three times a year doing musical improv at comedy festivals.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

It is usually we find out that he's going to after he's already there. Because it's used to we're also gone. And sometimes it's the same state, but like within out like within like Carrie Will, we will leave Orlando and he will arrive in Tampa the same day. And I'm like, you know, we could have stayed one more day. Like, I think he does that on purpose. I don't think he wants us to know. Like, even when he's in Dallas, he'll say, Oh, well, I'm going to Dallas tonight. We won't know for two days later because his buddy will post a picture and tag him. And we're like, It's what you were doing in Dallas. Anyway, so we totally squirreled. This is if anything, this is one of the most squirrely episodes we've had. But I love it. I love it. This is how you know we are not scripted and that there is no interview question. There were no interview questions. We couldn't have written this.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

And and truly, the genuine laughter, I hope people even just listening in uh that can't see the smiles and the encouragements that's bouncing back and forth. We know that that laughter changes all I call them endolphins because now I'm I'm in Florida right this minute while I'm talking to you. And the endolphins, the endorphins, uh, you know, swim when we laugh. Oh, boys and girls, there go some endolphins are swimming past because that was so funny. And I tell my teachers in the audience when you do something and the kids laugh to just stop and go, oh, that was funny when you're four years old. One time, you know, I ran in and I'm like trying to plug stuff in and unhook my guitar out of the guitar case and and and I'm touching, pat my head. I'm like, okay, boys and girls, everybody pat your knees. And I just got it scrambled up. It was not intentional that I was patting the wrong part of my body, saying a different body part. And they just cracked up. And I'm like, oh, this is funny if you know your body parts, and the tall person in the room has got this swirled up. Okay, so that's something, again, you can do that. You can manufacture that type of laughter. Just stop and say, Oh, that's funny when I insert this word incorrectly, or you know, salt that away. And then, you know, when you pull out the new surprise and everybody giggles and laughs, and and you know, you pat yourself on the back and you say, Okay, look at all those endolphins. And we know then that that event, that story, that uh rhyming piece is going to stay more solidly up there in their happy little brains. So the more we can get them having fun and laughing, the better off, the easier it is.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Maybe that's why Carrie remembers so many things. Because Carrie laughs a lot, and she laughed a lot as a kid. And I often try to figure out why Carrie remembers things from second grade, because let me just tell you, that is um, more than three decades ago. And um What? No, it's not. Well, I didn't tell them exactly how many decades. I said it was more than three. Um, but I always remember Carrie laughing as a and and having that smile as a child and as somebody who also cannot carry a tune. And I have figured out how to make my children cry on command, and that is called sing to them. And so um but the two really the most actually could sing. So it doesn't surprise me any that the kids who didn't like my singing actually can carry a tune.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Well, what I think is not fair is that I have my dad has perfect pitch and I have relative pitch. And that is really unfair as somebody who is not good singing, because like I can hear when anybody goes off. Right. And if that person is me, that's not fair. But I think the other thing, since we're, you know, primarily talking to administrators, is you can sing silly songs to the adults too. Oh, absolutely. And be like, clocking, clocking, but Debbie, this is your new album challenge.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Your new album challenge is the songs that the administrators would like to sing to their staff. And they can just play it. And it's things like that you need to clock in, that we don't need to see your body parts. Um, you know, like I'm like, I could come up with all kinds of interesting, like underwear goes underclothes, underwear goes underclothes.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

I think you already have a product here that would totally be complemented by childcare conversations. I'm and here, Kiery, you may not know this, but with today's technology, there's tuning. So, I mean, you can sing under where goes under there, you know, and it can be a little pitchy, as as Simon Cal would say. Okay, that's that's a little pitchy. And and there are little buttons at the recording studio. Woo! They bring that note up and that one down. Now you can't be completely lost in outer space.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

I can't be completely sharp, is what you're saying. Okay, I got I got it.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Well, yeah, but no kidding. Talk about bringing. Brilliant. And that was my whole business plan. Find a need and fill it. So for ten years I had been this administrative uh well, no. I started out as a resource teacher, like straight hands-on with the kids. Then I got promoted to being administrator. And I got assigned things like transportation and building and grounds and maintenance. And one day, no kidding, somebody called me up and said, I'd like to have a c you get together a committee about the quality of your hand soap in your hand soap dispensers. And I literally looked at the phone and said, I don't think that should be a committee.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

I don't even know if that's open for discussion. Like just buy it. Like if you need me to change to a different smell or I need to reduce my cost, fine. But No, no.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

They wanted me to have a committee meeting about this. And I literally looked at the phone and I I and I said, Would you repeat that? And and he said, I want you to have a committee about the quality of your hand soap and your own.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Okay, that's a song too. I know there's a song in there because that would have us all giggling. That should have been an email now, right? Like Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

And so I said to him, Thank you. This is the exact moment where I'm going to turn in my letter of resignation. And I really did. I mean, I really turned in my letter of resignation because he asked me to think about that and spend time on it. And I and the reason I I resigned was because I was no longer doing the hands-on. I was having to hire people. And in Ohio State's there, Capitol University's there, I mean, all these universities in in central Ohio. And I would get these great, wonderful musical people. And they had no idea about kids. And they sure had no idea about kids with special needs. And so they'd be singing something, you know, all over the map. And I'd be like, You got anything with a rousing chorus? Do you have anything that's more like five words and a puppet? You know? And and they they'd look at me. And so I went home day after day and said, you know, I'm paying these people money and spend the whole time telling them how and what to do with our kind of kids. And and my husband said, Well, quit your job and go on the road and just do what you had once done and loved. And so words and a puppet.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

That's my new, my new, my new something. It's at least a t-shirt, right? Five words and a puppet is at least an absolutely a t-shirt. So, all right. So, Debbie, I I mean, we could sit here and have another 30-minute conversation with you on sure. And there would be a lot more laughs, and we'd give you three more product lines because that's about how carry my work. Because we don't want it. We're just going to give you the idea and you can take it. Or somebody else can reach out to you and send them, you know, because if they don't identify as somebody who can carry a tune, they'll be like, Here, I wrote you seven songs to sing about what you need to be singing to your staff. Um, but we have so enjoyed having you on, and we know that people can find you on LinkedIn. Yes. And in our show notes, we're gonna have information about how to connect with you for a professional development, if somebody's on a conference committee. And you know what? If you're on a conference committee, you can even find three keynote speakers. Um, there's a secret. Like Carrie and I do that too. And what's even better, and I'm gonna promise not to get on this soapbox, but you could have three female keynote speakers, because you know, that's kind of a novel concept. Okay, on that note, Carrie, what should people do other than quickly get me off that soapbox?

SPEAKER_03 25:34

You should share this show with somebody else who needs to know what we had to say today, and you should go get some of Debbie's books and make sure that you tune in through your podcast player of choice or your channel. Or your YouTube channel. Yep, sometime in the next couple of days because we're here every Tuesday and Thursday, whether you want us to be or not, and we'd love to visit with you. Send us a text. We'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. And Kate pushes the button.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Thanks for tuning in. We love bringing you real talk and fresh insight from the world of early childhood education. Be sure to follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all of the latest episodes. And if you're planning a conference, training, or special event, Kate and Carrie would love to speak to your audience. You can learn more about their keynote sessions and workshops at kateandcary.com. If you learned something today, share the show and leave us a review below. We'll see you next time on Child Care Conversations.